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Why still do we do this? nudists still judge other nudists
Why is it that we as nudists still judge our own based on their marital status? Why do we preach acceptance, openness but will quickly tell a single nudist that they are not welcome among the rest of us? Sort of makes us look like full of shit hypocrites etc…I think we all as nudists were a single nudist at one time did we enjoy how we were treated by others?
Ooooooh here we go…
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LikeDislikeOne of the many effete snobbery characteristics of some nudists who believe they are more special. This holds true in every group or organization, nude or not.
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LikeDislikeThis is an issue which has been discussed for what seems like forever. The fact is that without some attempts at gender balance, single males can overrun a club, making it uncomfortable for some women who could feel outnumbered, and somewhat intimidated. Since nudism is a social experience, it’s important for any club to make members and guests feel as comfortable as possible.
There are many examples of gender quotas in business and politics. Whether or not these quotas are beneficial to women is debatable. And keep in mind that there are many social experiences which are women only, or men only. In naturism and nudism, it’s mostly about trying to make a balanced gender ratio, which is more inclusive than exclusive. Of course, sometimes in the effort to be balanced, the practice will seem unfair to some.
There are other issues, too, such as the exclusion of people based upon gender is a potential violation of civil rights laws. In the 1980s attorney Gloria Allred sued the Elysium Fields nudist resort for charging women a lower attendance fee than men. The resort stopped the practice.
Eventually someone will test the nudist practice of gender quotas in court. I think there are good arguments to be made on both sides of this issue.
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LikeDislikeChet I am not asking why resorts might only allow specific people to join to keep balance etc, I am asking why we as nudists still treat others like this? Why do we always dismiss others who might not match our status of being married, or a married with non practicing partner etc. Should simply be able to say , oh your a nudist please join us not oh is your wife not a nudist? then your not welcome here.
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LikeDislikeI don’t buy the notion that women don’t engage in nudism (especially in America) because they feel “outnumbered” by men. The question is – why are males so much more at ease engaging in nudism than women? There are several answers, most of which we know very well, that have to do with body image. The gender balance issue is almost non-existent elsewhere in the world. What we in the nudist community should be focusing on is making nudism accessible for everyone – knowing that women will be a particular challenge. Exclusion does not help the cause.
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LikeDislikeMelissa DejaNude, I thought I explained why singles are sometimes turned away. It’s a gender balance issue. I know that my campground, Cedar Trails in Ohio, doesn’t care whether or not a person is married, single, black, white, gay, straight, etc., it’s all about behavior. But I do know that they reserve the right to try and maintain a comfortable gender balance if necessary.
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LikeDislikeErik Jakobsen, I can only speak from my personal experience, that my wife would never have accompanied me to some local indoor nude swims because the men outnumbered the women nearly 10 to 1. That particular club is ruined by the imbalance.
I fail to see how nudism is not accessible to everyone simply because some clubs try and maintain a gender balance. One does not have to go to a commercial club to practice nudism. Anyone can start their own club, or go to a clothing-optional beach. You don’t like what’s available, then do something about it.
Also, it’s absurd to say that “the gender balance issue is almost non-existent” elsewhere in the world. Just do a Google search for “gender balance naturism” and you will see that this is common from Sweden to Australia.
You might want to read what Stephane Deschenes has to say about the Bare Oaks singles policy:
“Why is maintaining a gender balance important? Because a predominantly male population makes women uncomfortable. Yes I know that some of you reading this will argue that it doesn’t bother you. That’s probably because you are seasoned naturists. We plan on growing our membership from non-naturists. With people who are still getting used to the idea of naturism, gender balance is important. About 2 or 3 years ago, I had, on two separate occasions, the opportunity to introduce single women to naturism. Because it was in the winter, my wife and I took them to an ORB swim. As you probably know, the ORB does not maintain a gender balance. As a result, their swims are generally 90% men. I did not warn the women in any way nor did I point it out to them during the swim. Yet in both independent instances, the women volunteered that they were uncomfortable at the swim because of the large number of men. You have to understand that to a newbie, gender is very evident in a naturist environment. Sadly, neither women has ever been willing to try naturism again as a result of their first experience.”
http://www.blog.bareoaks.ca/2007/04/singles-policy.html
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LikeDislikeI think we’re both right, depending on which segment of the nudism “market” we are talking about. For private club/resort owners, it may certainly be financially advantageous to maintain a gender balance. Because if a club/resort owner wants gender balance, what they are essentially saying is they want couples only – because otherwise far more single men than women would join the club. They may then accept X number of single men, in the hope that women won’t feel outnumbered, thereby allowing X number of single women to join in an atmosphere of comfort. That’s all fine. But when we’re talking about nudism *advocacy*, we should be able to agree that exclusion is not the way to go. Obviously if you take a small number of newbie women to a nudist event that is 90% men without telling them the ratio in advance, it would be no surprise that they felt uncomfortable. They key, then, is to find ways of introducing more women to nudism without throwing them to the sharks, so to speak. We know the reasons why women are more scared than men to try nudism, and we need to work to dispel those fears.
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LikeDislikeIn an ideal world behavior should be judged not gender. Reality is, however, is any major imbalance (8 to 1 for example) always makes the minority nervous. Just human nature. We allow singles because they are there for the right reason (they are not “cruising”) but we always hope (and make fee incentives) to encourage better balance just because people seem to like it better. We also hope our “singles” will one day invite a guest, thus increasing our ranks.
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LikeDislikeI was a single male when I first joined a club, it was as a balance with other member numbers and in most ways it worked well. There was an odd one or two people who weren’t keen on single males specially older males, I got problems more around children not their mums. But it soon resolved itself as people got to know me & appreciate me as a person not think of me as a naked predator. The balance issue at clubs will remain, aslong as it is perceived that the ‘balance’ in theory works both ways. I can’t imagine the situation where a single female would have problems joining though!
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LikeDislikeOk so if its just a issue of behavior etc then I think all AANR clubs or resorts should put in place that all visitors,members must submit to a background check nothing major but just enough that it will show your criminal history if you have one and that only sex related arrests ban you from the resort for life so that being single,married,male,female etc will no longer matter and that if your in the resort enjoying the facilities no matter what other people can find peace knowing that single man walking by the pool area is harmless etc. Overall the reason I brought this post up was more about how we as individuals still treat others with such negative judgement, I am not really interested in why resorts choose to only allow so many single men or women. I guess I didnt really explain it enough.
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LikeDislikeI started off solo at a nude beach. Yes, there’s the usual and sometimes not to subtle, “oh he’s by himself, he’s probably gay” thing you’d get at other beaches. I’d hang with the couples and families, and enjoyed some acceptance there. And with the gays, even when they realized that I wasn’t one of them.
The first club I called was very stern over the phone about not accepting single males. So I called another. The owner of that one was single (divorced) and was very understanding. After our chat, I was more than welcome to visit. Other clubs also responded better to a chat on the phone and a request to visit.
More clubs simply ask that single males be “affiliated” and have some experience with it so the don’t come and expect something else or behave inappropriately. Sometimes all it takes is AANR membership, but membership in at least a non-landed club opens up most doors.